Show Notes
Transcript
Simon (00:00) So welcome to the Cemoh Marketing Podcast. My name is Simon Dell. I am your host today. I'm also the CEO of Cemoh. We'll get through all the introductory stuff very quickly. We are a people-based business. Cemoh do fractional marketing people. We're based here in Brisbane in Australia, but we have people all over the country. If you wanna find out more about us, www.cemoh.com.
You can find me on LinkedIn, Simon Dell, I'm pretty obvious to find, pretty easy to find. Or email me at [email protected]. And finally, if you enjoy today and you enjoy listening to myself and Annika, then it would be awesome if you'd go and give us a review somewhere, that would be fantastic. So without further ado, I'm gonna introduce my guest today, who is Annika Pol, who I met. probably about three or four months ago. And she is the buying manager at a brand called Trademutt. Now, if you're a tradie, you probably know Trademutt, but for everybody's benefit, I'm gonna get Annika to do the quick sort of elevator pitch of Trademutt. So Annika Pol, welcome to the show.
Annika (01:18) Thanks so much, Simon. It's pleasure to be on today. As you mentioned, Trademutt is so well known in the tradie space. We are a social enterprise that makes workwear designed to spark conversations amongst our blue collar community. So our workwear is loud, bright and fabulous. You can't miss us walking down the street. We were started a few years ago. So one of our founders, Dan, who's a tradie, a chippy, he lost his best mate to suicide, which is absolutely gutting. And he and his apprentice, Ed, realised that there was a real gap in the market because no one was really talking about mental health on site in the job spaces. No one was really opening up and discussing the mental health issues. And so they kind of came up with this wacky concept. Why don't we create these wild shirts that people can't ignore and make this invisible issue impossible to ignore? So We make these very loud, brightly printed work shirts that are designed to start conversations on site. They've got, this is the conversation starter, literally embroidered on the back of them. And the way our social enterprise is set up is that 50 % of the profits we make from selling these shirts go back to funding a mental health support service for the blue collar community. So TX, which was also launched in 2020 is an early intervention mental health counselling service designed for tradies, truckies, blue collar and rural farmers to reach out to and have conversations about where they're at. It's free, but it's also a professional mental health counselling service. we offer them a lot.
Simon (03:10) Okay. And obviously since its inception, it's obviously done some fantastic work, but do you know sort of how many calls it gets every week or the volume of people that it's helped?
Annika (03:27) Look, we've delivered more than 4,000 hours of free mental health service counselling since we started, which is incredible.
Simon (03:39) that's a lot of people. obviously, you know, that's, yeah, that's helping a lot of people. And this is, you know, this is an area that I always feel this is one of those areas that everyone knew there was a problem for a long, long time and no one ever did anything about. And I've obviously been lucky enough to interview Dan and Ed as well at an event. So very inspiring, very exciting what they're doing.
Annika (03:40) It's a lot, yep.
Simon (04:08) Yeah, look, if you've seen the shirts, you know the shirts. You've seen them once, you know the brand, don't you?
Annika (04:16) totally. We're pretty easy to spot. And that's the point, right? I mean, it's an interesting concept because I don't think you could ever really start a printed work shirt business without the why behind what we do. It's a pretty unique proposition in the marketplace. We exist for a real cause and a real purpose, which is really lovely. So one of our initiatives, we have something called Funky Shirt Fridays. So we encourage tradies to wear these like brightly coloured shirts on Fridays, on job sites. And to keep that dialogue going regularly throughout the year. It's not just a once a year sort of occasion. It's a constant dialogue because people obviously have ups and downs in mental health all the time, not just one day a year.
Simon (05:01) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so talk about your role there because you've actually done two stints there, didn't you? You've been there about you've been there nine months at the moment, but you were you were there before and then you went away and came back again. And the lure was too big to stay away or was that that? How did that?
Annika (05:14) Hmm. Totally. I mean, look, I am very well looked after at Trademark. I love the team there. It is an awesome team and an awesome workplace to be a part of. So it was when the opportunity came up at the end of last year, I had to take it. It was just a must. My current role there is buying manager. So I oversee the product development cycle from start to finish our team looks after everything from ideation to product development through to managing the buy. So how much stock we buy, what quantity, getting the price right, getting the time of year right, and then also making sure that stock arrives to our warehouse so it can be shipped out to our customers. So it's quite a broad overview. When I worked in the brand previously, I was a senior designer, so I was more in the detail of designing the garments, whereas now my role is more overseeing the end-to-end process.
Simon (06:16) Okay, so that's what you're doing now. You've got a, as you said, you've done senior designer, you've worked for some other big brands as well. You know, looking back through your, you know, your LinkedIn, there's obviously the one that jumps out immediately is Lorna Jane. You know, you were there for what, two and a half years, but you've done a lot of this with Bonds and Lorna Jane and what is it about that product design in the fashion space that, or unless I'm not noticing necessarily the fashion space, but the clothing space what is it that really kind of excites you about it?
Annika (06:54) Ooh, good question. Look, I've always had this like very keen interest in art and design since I was a kid. It's just sort of the thing that I like to nerd out on. So it's, you know, it's just one of those things I can't take my eyes off. I always think about garments and clothing and putting outfits together. It's just always been a big part of who I am. So yeah, that sort of, guess, has always had a, it's always been a big interest of mine and it sort of just naturally became my career path in life. So yeah, I definitely have like a strong design background and design for a number of Australia's like most love really fun brands, you know, and all brands with this like lovely connection to purpose, which is really nice. Like, you know, Bonds was such an amazing brand to start with in my career because they are all about the everyday Australian. They are all about dressing for everyone and they're very egalitarian in the way they approached that and that was a really lovely workplace and a really big, big business to dive into. I learnt so much about process and how to make something work at a large scale from an early point in my career. And then when I jumped over to Lorna Jane, that was quite a different experience because I was working directly with the founder. And it was...I would describe it as like a large family business. So even though that was a global business with a global footprint, it was still being run like a family business. So that was really interesting gear shift because I got to get involved in sort of the end to end process there with the creative director, Lorna Jane herself, and learned so much about business from her and adopted a real business first mindset when I worked for her. It really pushed me to think not just creatively, but also about the dollars and cents, also about margins, also making sure that everything's profitable. So it was a really unique workplace and I learnt so much there. was like fascinating.
Simon (08:51) There was a question I wanted to ask out of something you just said earlier about the Bonds brand. And everyone, you know, everyone knows the Bonds brand. If you don't, you'd be living under a rock for a long time. But you kind of sort of said is that Bonds has that everyday Australian feel, right? When you're developing a product, whether it's for Bonds or whether for anything, whether it's fashion or whatever it is, what, this is a two part question. What comes first? Is it that...brand, that brand vision, or are you sort of coming to the to the party with a an idea of a product and going and building a brand around it? Because it's kind of and then and then to the second part of that question is, how do you bring the phrase everyday Australian and I know that's not brons is like tagline, but how do you bring that brand ethos into a pair of underpants? It's like how it's, how does that work? mean, underpants are underpants. Like, what is it that makes it everyday Australian?
Annika (09:56) Mmm. Mmm. it's a great question. Okay, so to the first part of your question I think whenever you're developing product it is a brand-first mentality and I think that brand is what really makes a garment or a product have a life of its own, know anyone can design a frock anyone can design a pair of undies a pair of tights, but The ethos behind what you're doing and why you're doing it is what shapes the consumer desire at end of the day. Like people are buying into a lifestyle and aspiration, a look, a value set. So the garments are nothing without the brand behind it. It's so integral. And then in terms of how do you infuse like an everyday Australianess into a brand. So that's a really fun one. Bonds is so unique because it's been around for so long, right? So it already has a very established notion of that in its DNA because so many people think of Bonds and they think about Mr. Chesty Bonds in his, you know, ribbed singlet back in the day. It's had this continual brand story for so long that you can kind of leverage that. The way it still maintains its relevance is that that brand has continued to evolve and grow with the Australian audience. So it's very much got its finger on the pulse for what is happening socially and what is going on in the world around us. And it's reflecting that back in its brand today. So it's not aged. It's not aged with the times. It's stayed relevant. yeah.
Simon (11:34) Okay, there was another thing you said in that first segment about profitability and I guess this is one of the biggest challenges when it comes to all-profit, all-product design. Again, whether we're talking fashion or software or whatever it is, you've got to balance...You've got to balance how much you can put into a product. I guess with yourself, it will be like materials or process in terms of how we create these things. There's a balance between how much money you can put into developing a product versus the money that they're making at the other end. So I guess there's probably...Would it be fair that there's a fine line and there's moments when you go, hey, we should do this and someone else goes, yeah, we're not gonna make any money if we do that. Is that how it works? Like if you've got an accountant, accountant's getting on your shoulder all the time going, stop doing that, Annika.
Annika (12:24) Absolutely, absolutely. Totally. And it's interesting because in my career I guess I've flipped from being in the creative role where I'm like, let's do all the crazy stuff to being like, actually no, you need to make it work so it's profitable. I really pride myself on being a designer who understands the commercial nature of what we do. And I think that you know, anyone can design things with a million bells and whistles on it, but can you design something that's actually going to make margin and actually going to keep the business running and profitable? It's a tricky balance to get right. So it's knowing what to emphasize and what to scale back on. It's knowing what is your key focal point and what can you do without because otherwise we could all be running around in these fabulous frocks that are wild but, or, you know, the variation of a trademark shirt that's got a million bells and whistles on it and way more things than it needs, but will it actually keep delivering the profits that you need to then fund the mental health charity? Probably not. So therefore it's not as important. yeah, look, finding the balance in those things is such an integral part of product development and what we do. So yeah, would say like knowing what to emphasize and when, and knowing when to have restraint as well, it's important.
Simon (13:24) Yeah. And when you're creative, that's always a bit of a challenge, isn't it?
Annika (13:45) Yeah, definitely, yeah.
Simon (13:47) There's a great quote from a guy called EF Shoemaker who was a statistician in the UK and he died a long time ago in the 70s and I've got his quote on my list of favourite quotes and it's just something you said there kind of made me think about this quote and his quote goes courage to move in the opposite direction. You know, and I love that because it's like, I always think that was how Steve Jobs felt is that simplicity was, you know, simplicity was what sells. You can add, you know, you could add frills and different colors and all those kinds of things. But in your, in your sense, where you're at now is at the end of the day, people still want a work shirt.
Annika (14:19) Hmm.
Simon (14:42) you know, above and beyond anything else and all the messaging aside and all that, they come in because they want to buy a workshop. And I guess your primary job is to deliver them a workshop that they're happy with, I guess.
Annika (14:53) yeah, definitely. for that reason, we always emphasize things like we always put quality first in our product development process. We also have to weigh in the price of what the cost to the consumer is. And then we have to weigh up how much time it's going to take because effectively, we need to turn things around relatively quickly and not be taking months and months of development time to get the product there. So it's that triangle, that product quality price triangle. constantly in a push-pull to get that right balance.
Simon (15:24) Yeah. And further to that, what does quality mean to you? And that's again, a two part question. So what does it mean to you generally as Anika in your day to day life? But what does quality mean to trademark? What is, what are some of the smaller little bits and pieces that you think go, that you look at a shirt or you look at a product that you're creating there and go, that's the level of quality that we want to, we want to maintain through all of our products.
Annika (15:52) So I think at Trademutt, it's all about, for me, it's about durability. Like I want that work shirt to really stand up to the tough environments it's being put through. And our customers do wear these shirts and wear them and wear them and wear them again and again and again. And you see them three years later and they have got those those markings of being very well loved and worn. And, you know, like they stand the test of time. They're a great shirt in terms of quality outside of trademark in terms of my day to day life. Look, longevity is one aspect of it. Craftsmanship is another. I think we're in a really interesting time, Simon, because we've got, you know, there are some new disruptive brands coming into the marketplace, not so much in the workwear space, but Timu and Sheen are really changing the fashion landscape at the moment.
Simon (16:49) Yeah.
Annika (16:51) Together they are shipping more than 600,000 orders over to the states on a daily basis. More than half a million. They are prioritizing low cost products, but of course there's a very big humanitarian environmental impact. 10 years ago, we'd look at a brand like H&M and say that that was a big fast fashion brand.
Simon (17:00) Jesus. Yeah.
Annika (17:19) H&M not doing very good things to the environment, know, no good. These days, H is a drop in the ocean compared to Shein and Temu. So I hope, Simon, in the future, what we see is a backlash against the bad quality we have in the marketplace at the moment. It's not sustainable. It can't last. It is setting us up for massive environmental impacts. And the humanitarian cost of making low cost products like that is huge. I don't think a lot of people understand that.
Simon (17:27) Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, it reminds me of a, I, and this is one of those ones where I remember the story, but I don't remember where I read it. And I only read it yesterday or the day before. So that shows you how shocked my memory is. But it was talking about why, why, why poor people stay poor. And it was using fashion as an example. And what it was saying was that if you're a worker on a low wage, you can't necessarily afford the high quality pair of boots. If you're taking $50 home every month and your boots and these high quality boots are going to cost 50 bucks, you can't afford that. So what you do is you buy the cheaper boots, the $10 boots, but the $10 boots only last a couple of years and then fall apart and then you replace them again. And then you're constantly spending this $10 and $10 and $10 to replace your boots. Whereas the richer people, the people with money who need a pair of boots, buy a $50 pair of boots that lasts them 10 years. So it's that sort of balance between we're buying all this fast fashion and it's kind of pandering to a, potentially to a lower socioeconomic demographic, but it's just not lasting them. It's not, back in my parents' day and even back in my day, made me sound old. But I've got jackets and coats upstairs that I've had for, I've got one upstairs that I had when I was in a band in London in the early 2000s, like 2002. And it's still a great jacket. I'm waiting for the fashion for that era to come back around again. I should be wearing it now, but.
Annika (19:20) Hahaha!
Simon (19:46) It's probably come around 20 years cycle so I'm probably back in vogue now. But you know, to the point it's that we, you know, do you, get to a question here in a second. Do you, you obviously see that as a problem, but how does the market, how do product developers sit there and go, okay, we do need to put more quality into products without increasing the cost. Surely that's a challenge that's a really hard challenge to solve, I guess.
Annika (20:14) It is Simon, but you know, I think when you're working at a certain price point you can afford quality. So it's more that you probably never achieve quality at the lowest of low price points. that's solved by having the right price structure and the right product mix. I think what we need to get back to as a society is, know, Australians, it has recently been reported that Australians consume the most garments out of any country in the world per year. So our number on average is around, it's high 50s, like close to 60 garments per year on average per person. So some people obviously consume a lot more than that and some a lot less, but we have got a massive consumption problem in Australia where we are just buying shit all the time and it is not sustainable. So we really need to get back to a point where we put value into clothing that will last, where we put value into repairing garments, where we encourage people to re-wear garments or at least put them through some sort of circular cycle where they are being shared, rented, re-loved, re-worn and looked after. Like that is where we need to get to. We're definitely not there at the moment. But I do have a hope that there will be a backlash against this like poor quality, fast fashion situation and people will start valuing things again.
Simon (21:36) Yeah, the Temu thing is, that's worrying. Those numbers that you've said sort of scare me. And I say this with a eight year old boy who plays indoor football in a Temu football kit that we...one of the other parents bought online for all the seven boys because it was cheap. And it'll get them through one season. And then they'll grow out of it or they might give it to their... I put a black sack full of kids clothes into one of those recycling bins that go to P&G and places like that.
Annika (21:58) Hmm. Hmm.
Simon (22:24) I can't, I don't want to throw them away. And I'm sitting there going, if, someone in PNG can, you know, wear my six year old shorts again, then, then fantastic. But yeah.
Annika (22:34) Yeah, but also, you know, like us trying to ship our old clothing overseas to a poorer country is, you know, that has issues as well. So we need to be, you know, taking more accountability for our choices ourselves. And I say this knowing I'm being an absolute hypocrite because I shop quite excessively myself. it's, it's, I'm, I am very much part of the problem here. I'm not absolving myself of that whatsoever.
Simon (22:42) Yeah. Yeah.
Annika (23:00) I mean, look, a lot of the donations that go to places like Salvos and Vinny's end up being shredded for things like carpet fill because they're not wearable. You know, we need to encourage people to donate clothing when it's still got some life in it and when it can still be repurchased and re-worn in a charitable sense. There are some really great innovations out there. So an app that I use regularly is called Depop and it's like a circular fashion app. So if you've got a garment, but you're not going to wear it again, you can take a piccy of it.
Simon (23:23) Okay.
Annika (23:29) put a little description up and you sell it online yourself. But yeah, if you've still got garments that are of high quality, I think donating them is also a really lovely option so that they can have a second life. But at the crux of it, we still need to get back to less consumption overall from the get go. Yeah.
Simon (23:32) Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I might have download that app and see if I can sell my red leather jacket from my band days and see if anyone's interested in that one. Last couple of questions. you must, obviously you're exposed to product design and all that kind of stuff.
Annika (23:56) It'll probably pop off, Simon, it'll pop off.
Simon (24:07) What are some of the other people that you see or some of the other potential brands out there that you see doing really good stuff, and not necessarily in your space? Is there anything that of jumps to mind that you see every day and go, I love what they're doing? I mean, you got some Bose headphones on there as well. was like, I love those. Are they Bose headphones?
Annika (24:30) Yeah. They are and yeah, I do love these headphones. They are a godsend on international travel. You know, when you're catching a long haul flight and I've got the plug attachment to plug it into the back of their headset if you want to watch a movie on the flight as well. But these are, look, there are some brands out there outside of the fashion space too doing really well. Like yeah, I think Bose is someone who nail not just their branding but also their product proposition.
Simon (24:41) Yeah.
Annika (25:01) In terms of the fashion landscape, look, it's funny, it chops and changes all the time. It's interesting watching how brands can rise and fall. You know, at the moment, you can't step outside without someone wearing a pair of retro Adidas sneakers. The Sambas have been huge news in the fashion world lately.
Simon (25:21) Yeah.
Annika (25:27) And it's very interesting because at the same time, like Nike dunks, for example, a few years ago were the hottest item and they were selling for three times the retail price because everyone wanted a pair and no one wants them. I is so fickle like that. Sorry, Simon, I'm not answering your initial question very well. me, sorry, I know you can edit a little bit of this out, but I'm just trying to think.
Simon (25:44) No, no, no, I kind of put you on the spot a bit there, but I should have prepped you for that one.
Annika (25:55) if there's someone else that I can think of off of my head that I think is doing really well. It's interesting you say Nike there. got into a conversation the other day about on LinkedIn, some there was a lady in the US who'd done a tour of a couple of the Nike stores and was showing how badly that retail experience was, how bad the retail experience was considering the properties that Nike were paying millions and millions of dollars to every year, the tennis players, the football players, know, Cristiano Ronaldo and all those kinds of things. And you can walk into a store and not see any of those people in there. And the retail experience was absolutely shocking. I mean, so to sort of expand that, are there retail experiences that you see out there that you like going into that you think are doing good jobs, even if it's a regular retail experience. Some people love going into Woolworths and things like that, but you know, it is a controversial shopping. Yes.
Annika (26:56) Controversial shopping experience these days, six dollar Tim Tams. Look, my favourite place in the world to go shopping, and this is so not sustainable, is to go to Paris.
Simon (27:14) But why is Paris such an experience for you? mean, obviously it's a beautiful city, but why from a shopping perspective? What makes it different from going to Westfield Chermside or whatever?
Annika (27:24) I think that they do department stores like no one else. they look customer service could always be improved, but like they're ranging and interesting mix of brands and designers is always pretty strong. And also just the experience you have boutique shopping over there in the Moray is like lovely. And you get some really interesting, well thought out, well designed.
Simon (27:28) Okay.
Annika (27:53) interior styled shops and spaces that you can go shopping in. So I think that it's something that the Australian landscape can lack in. There are some Australian brands doing some really great things at the moment. I think in the women's wear, the young women's wear space, Sir the label is probably at the forefront of women's fashion at the moment. They have really great and beautiful boutique spaces that are very welcoming and you get a really great level of customer care.
Simon (27:57) Mm. Yeah. Okay.
Annika (28:39) You know, Simon, sometimes the retail landscape in Australia leaves a lot to be desired.
Simon (28:45) That's fine. Yeah, I think you can absolutely, absolutely say that. I have to say from a male perspective, it's even worse. know, it's, you know, not wanting to sort of try and make it like we're playing sides or anything, but you know, from a male perspective, because men shop in a, well, that's another question. Do you find that men shop in different ways? If you're working with someone like Bonds, the way that you present a product to the male demographic different to the way that you present a product to the female demographic?
Annika (29:19) Yeah, it is because men I mean this is very generalised but men tend to be more straightforward shoppers. So like at Bonds for example You'd sell a seven pack of undies Right. No brainer right one for every day of the week. Great. Bingo. Bingo in the cart add to cart. Thank you very much Women's no not so much like they want the ability to chop and choose and really range what they Personally like a little bit more. There's a bit more finesse to the shopping experience there. So, but in general, it's a lot easier to make clothing for men's bodies. Men's clothing in general is easier to cut, easier to make a mess, easier to fit. Women's clothing is a little bit trickier. So the retail experience can sometimes be lacking for women because it's very difficult to shop for a broad range of body shapes and sizes within one brand. So...
Simon (30:01) Okay. Yeah.
Annika (30:19) A lot of brands will try and do that, but you really do need to cut clothing differently for different body types. So yeah, it's a tricky retail landscape out there for the average shopper, I would say. I think a lot of people find a lot of frustration shopping retail, which is probably why e-commerce has taken off, because people can just get things delivered to their door, right? Try it on at home, send it back if they don't like it. Brands like, yeah.
Simon (30:24) Yeah. Yeah. I agree and I disagree because I always think I still want to touch and feel what it is I'm about to buy. I still want to hold it in my hand before I'm... You know, look, I mean, I bought a hoodie online and...I was happy with it, but then I go, wish I'd tried the other size. And I'm like, I can't be bothered sending this one back to try on the other size. This one will just do for me. So then my experience with it isn't as 100 % as good as it could have been. Do know what I mean?
Annika (31:18) Totally, and I think there's probably a lot of customers out there like you Simon who just don't do that next step and return and you know get things perfect So then they end up with a lot of waste as well. So yeah, it's not it's not a perfect scenario at all I agree with you. I love going in store and trying things on and touching things in person myself There are some I had an amazing customer service experience at Incu clothing in Sydney a little while ago my mum was in hospital and I needed a pair of tracksuit pants delivered same day to her and they went above and beyond. They just launched Uber shop so you could order something in line and Uber would pick it up and drop it to her. And for some reason that day it was new technology. They hadn't quite got it right. It didn't work, but the customer service person in the store personally went and delivered it to the hospital two kilometres away at the end of her shift to, you know.
Simon (31:54) Okay. Wow. Mmm.
Annika (32:15) It was a step above anything I've ever really seen before. And I was really appreciative of it. Like that'll make me a customer of theirs for life. So, I mean, but you can't offer that to everyone, can you? So it's not exactly a scalable customer service example, but it was a memorable one.
Simon (32:19) Yeah. Yeah. No, well, I know where your warehouse is. That's going to be difficult if you guys start trying to do that. So, look, okay, last question for today. What's on the horizon for trademark? Where are you guys going from a product and a business perspective? 2025, you know, what should we be looking out for from you guys?
Annika (32:53) Look, we will always want to be at the forefront of Tradie fashion But we are on a growth path at the moment We are very focused on developing our community making sure they feel engaged Making sure that they are well cared for making sure that they put the services and support they need to be the best selves so that is at the forefront of what we do and we'll always be at the forefront of what we continue to do. But we have some really fun and exciting new products coming out here. Simon, I can't really share too much about it with you, but watch this space because we continue to try and test new things and our customers are responding really well and they love all the new developments and products we bring out.
Simon (33:44) And I think was it six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, you guys announced a partnership with Bunnings, was it? Is that?
Annika (33:51) Yes, yes, that's something that I'm super proud of. We did an exclusive design for Bunnings and a water bottle in store. It was available through the trade desk at Bunnings. And through that collaboration, they were able to donate more than six hundred thousand dollars to TX, the mental health support service that we offer, which is huge. It's our single biggest donation to the mental health hotline. So that was an amazing achievement this year that the team pulled off.
Simon (34:24) Yeah, that's awesome. That's fantastic. And I have to say just, you know, I always find Bunnings is one of those brands that I just, find Bunnings keep managing to deliver. I feel it's still a great brand. I, you know, I know some people hate it. Some people love it, but you know, but I think Bunnings is an iconic Australian brand is, is often vastly underrated.
Annika (34:25) Get out. they are, you know, they are at the core of most Australians weekends, I would say, even if you're not a tradie. You know, we've all got our own little wannabe tradie kits at home and we all love a bit of DIY on the weekend or a bit of gardening. So yeah, there's a lot of love for that brand, I think around the country. Yeah.
Simon (34:52) Yeah. Yeah, yeah, well that's fantastic news. if anyone wants to track you down or ask you a question or just incessantly annoy you with something, what's the best way of finding you?
Annika (35:17) You can find me on LinkedIn or on Instagram, Annika Pol.
Simon (35:21) Awesome. Thank you very much for your time today. I think there's a lot of great learnings out of that. It's great to hear about Trademark and your experience as well. So thank you very much for being on the show.
Annika (35:30) Thanks so much, Simon. Lovely to chat to you.
Simon (35:33) Thanks.