Cemoh 133: Dealing With Difficult Clients

Simon (00:01) So with this training video, I have got three of our awesome consultants together from all around the country. They're gonna introduce themselves quickly, but we're gonna tackle the big question, the big questions around that challenge with dealing with difficult clients. So first things first, we're gonna go through who everybody else is. So first of all, Charlie, if you'd like to do a quick introduction to yourself.

Charlie Syme (00:24) Yes, hey everyone, my name is Charlie Syme. My business is called Pigface Marketing. I'm based in Melbourne and I work with a range of clients but probably skewing into the sort of for -purpose space and in terms of the work I do I probably skew towards the content creation side of marketing.

Simon (00:46) Awesome, thank you Charlie. Kristy?

Kristy Hunter (00:49) So yep, Kristy here, Hunter Marketing Co is my business name and I predominantly focus on marketing strategy and supporting with implementation. I also do a bit of coaching as well. So my clients are generally growing SMEs and solo business owners generally speaking. So I've got basically three different levels of what I offer. So it really does depend on the business and how established they are.

Simon (01:19) Awesome, thank you very much. And last but definitely not least, Sarah Lille, how are you?

Sarah (01:23) I'm good, thank you. So I'm Sarah. My business is Seen in Queen Marketing. We focus primarily on e -commerce. We obviously have a range of other clients in different industries, but that's been primarily my background the last few years. So managing smaller businesses and being their marketing person so pretty much generalists looking after every single aspect of marketing you could think of that's what I've been doing.

Simon (01:56) Cool, awesome, Look, the first question, we're talking about difficult clients. Now I'm gonna say that we don't wanna mention any names. I'm sure we've all got the war stories from our time doing this, but nobody wants to get sued here, especially not me, so we'll keep names out of it. But just starting with Charlie, what is it, if I say to you difficult clients, what does that sort of mean to you? What does that, you know, what goes through your head when I say that?

Charlie Syme (02:27) Yeah, a couple of things go through my head. think one of the unique things about what we're doing, like the fractional CMO model is you're not full time with anyone. So you're helping out different clients. So something that is a warning sign for me, I think is unreasonable expectations. Be it, you know, available at all times or why wasn't this done yesterday? The model is obviously, I'm here to work with you without a contract at a day a week or a day a month or whatever so if they're not really getting how that works that's maybe first warning sign for me.

Simon (03:05) Okay, Kristy yourself?

Kristy Hunter (03:08) Yeah, look, I think when...because I work pretty closely with CEOs and owners of businesses. And I think when they get overly involved, like they start to micromanage and wanting to perfect things to the point where it's quite from it. Because when I manage teams or help to manage teams in businesses, when they're giving those people far too much feedback, it has a really big impact on a like productivity and mental health even, because then the say marketing coordinator that's trying to do everything in the business is getting highly criticised like day to day, then they're not confident in what they're doing for the business. And so that has a really big impact, not just on the person, but as you know, on the business as a whole as well. So there's a couple of, you know, things that I've seen with some of my clients and I have to have those discussions with the CEO and the business owner to go, Hey, you can't do that. It's not gonna end well.

Simon (04:15) What about you, Sarah?

Sarah (04:17) Yeah, it's probably a mix of what Charlie and Kristy have both said in their responses. Definitely the micromanaging is a big part in smaller businesses. But also jumping in and I think it's an extension of what Christie was saying is jumping in and actually changing the work that you've done for them. That's probably another one.

Simon (04:41) Yeah, Yeah, that would not be fun. okay. Sorry, go on, Sarah, what were you gonna say? cool. I think one of the interesting things, one of the flags that I've seen as well is where...

Sarah (04:46) No. That's it.

Simon (04:59) They've had previously poor experiences with someone who's done marketing, be that an agency or be that internally. And one of their first comments to you and certainly from me, even before we get through the, you know, even we get to the point when we're actually working with them and it's not generally me working with them anymore, they, you know, we've tried, we've tried this and it didn't work or we've tried agencies and they didn't work as well. I re I recently had someone who said, you know, I've been through three coaches before I've been talking to you and straight away red flag and I'm like this is not going to end well you know because and I hate to say it but it feels like sometimes you know that everyone says the customers always in the right but sometimes they're not are they Kristy?

Kristy Hunter (05:37) Yeah. No. And I think I've built some good relationships with my clients where I can have those really transparent and honest conversations with them. So I think that's just really key from the get -go. If you can try to build that rapport as an advisor, that they kind of, you're positioning yourself that way, that they'll listen to you and take on their feedback, all the feedback you're giving them.

Simon (06:04) Yeah. Yeah. I know we've all we've all sort of come from marketing, but we all are in marketing backgrounds predominantly. But do you think it's you do you think it's uniquely a marketing thing, Sarah? Do think it's that that you know, they wouldn't they perhaps wouldn't get involved if if we were lawyers or if we were HR people?

Sarah (06:28) think it would happen with anyone to be honest. think business owners are always going to have, you know, it's their business, it's their baby. it's, I guess, depending on who they've worked with in the past and the trust that they have for people going forward. So trust is obviously a big, big part of being a consultant with a business. If they can trust you and they can see the outcomes and you can provide statistics for those outcomes, that's where you're probably going to have a better relationship with your client.

Simon (07:04) Yeah. What about you Charlie? Do you think it's uniquely to marketing or do you think there's that sort of applies across other, you know, other perhaps people that they work with?

Charlie Syme (07:15) Well, I kind of do think it is a bit of a unique marketing war story. You know, this was in a previous job when the head of finance was telling me what we should be doing with the logo. And I, you know, I just couldn't believe it. I don't think that happens to the same degree. But, you know, marketing makes people passionate and especially business owners. And yeah, look, that is part of the job. In terms of often they don't really you know with respect they don't really know what they're talking about from a marketing perspective but they're you can bet they're going to have an opinion so those diplomatic skills are pretty important to navigate those.

Simon (07:58) Did you tell the finance guy what he should be doing with his profit and loss as well?

Charlie Syme (08:02) I spent the next few weeks plotting how I can do something in return to drive home the point of what just happened.

Simon (08:12) I think it's one of those ones where marketing can often be quite subjective. People can have an opinion about, as you said, about a logo or a campaign. And we've all been programmed to a degree to think about advertising in a subjective way rather than objective way. perhaps, you think, Kristy, that they're sort of looking at it going, well, if I don't like it, then nobody's going to like this?

Kristy Hunter (08:18) Mm. Yeah, look, I think that they are probably a bit too close to their own brand. You know, I think when that happens, you know, I think they don't have that broader perspective. And that's why I kind of come in and go, you know, is your what your opinion is, do you think is the same as what your customers opinion is? So put it put it back to them that way and get them thinking differently.

Simon (08:40) Yeah. Yeah, you've both you've all sort of mentioned a few few ways of approaching that and be that CEO or be that, you know, a business owner or somebody else. Like Sarah, how would you you know, if someone else is if you were sort of advising someone else facing this challenge, like what would you what would be the things that you would do to tackle the problem?

Sarah (09:19) Probably communication would be number one is obviously having that chat with the client that they're working with, making sure that the expectations are laid out initially before even the project gets started. So making sure that the client's aware of what the agreement is and then obviously that's set in stone and they're the days that you're doing and this is the project or this is the work that you'll be providing them and then so obviously having that laid out and that communication from the get -go but obviously if they've got to a point where you know, it's past that point is then just sitting down and reiterating all that again and having that that communication with the client again and just going, okay, we've you know, we've worked together for this long. This is what you know, I expect to provide you what do you expect for me to give you as well and then yeah, come to an agreement there so that you can move forward. But it's also about, you know, being positive and confident in the work that you're providing the client as well. Because at the end of the day, they've hired you as the expert. You're the expert in marketing, not them. So that's why they've got you on board. So you just need to, yeah, obviously be professional about it. Go back to them with statistics and results that you've achieved for them in the time that you've worked for them as well to just say.

Simon (10:55) Yeah. What about you, Charlie? Is it something that you would sort of day dot? You sit there and go, Hey, this is, you know, this is the line in the sand. This is what I'm here to do. Or is it something that you tackle later on? Or is it just a combination of those that you're constantly repeating, you know, reinforcing why you're, why you're there.

Charlie Syme (11:15) Yeah, look, it's something that I think has got to be done throughout the relationship. And I was just thinking like credit to you guys like that with the contact reports within the platform that it's been really good discipline for me to make sure that update is going on a regular basis. It's helpful for me to track back about what happens throughout the week. And things like that can just really protect yourself if there are sort of unreasonable things that might come your way. If you've got that documentation, you're in a much stronger position to deal with it.

Simon (11:35) Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, we looked at those contact reports because that's something that we've had since day dot. Matt and I always talk about the fact that we should probably sit down and work out the length of the length of contract for people who put in contract, putting contact reports every week versus the ones that don't put in contact reports every week. And I was sure there is there is some

Kristy Hunter (12:16) Mm, mm.

Simon (12:19) some sort of relation that says, know, if your constant feedback means that you work with the client longer. So, yeah, I think that that's, you know, that's super important. Kristy, you sort of mentioned sitting down with the client, I mean, is this one of those things where you potentially, you know, take them out of the office or buy them a drink first or, you know, just to say, you sitting comfortably? I need to have a conversation with you. I mean, you know, some, some, as you would know, and I would know, and everyone would know is that some, often these business owners can actually be quite intimidating. They, you know, they're strong people, be they male or female, but it's hard sometimes to have conversations with them.

Sarah (12:44) Yeah.

Kristy Hunter (12:59) Mm. Yeah, it is. And I think, you know, what Sarah was saying about being confident in yourself is really important. I'm probably at a point in my career and, you know, my age where I'm just like, you know what? I don't give a shit anymore. I'm just going to have to have this conversation, whether I like it or not, or the other person likes it or not. It's going to happen because it's really critical to do that. And yes, I have a couple of clients where I go, yep, let's get out of the office. Let's have a conversation in a coffee shop where you know, it's not a boring boardroom and it feels uncomfortable. It's like, let's just chill out a bit here but talk about the important stuff moving forward and that seems to work well for me.

Simon (13:40) Hmm. Yeah, look, it's a great, it's a great, it's a great lesson that, you know, I learned from years ago when I was standing on the front door of nightclubs working with bouncers and bouncers and the, and the good bouncers that always used to say to me, the moment you take the person out of the situation or out of the area that's, that's perhaps caused the confusion or caused the challenge.

Kristy Hunter (14:02) Mm -hmm.

Simon (14:07) automatically, you know, challenges sort of, you know, they deflate and people become a lot easier to talk to and become a lot more, you know, willing to have conversations with you. Yeah. So, you know, I think that that idea of taking them out of their comfort zone, and potentially even Sarah taking them out of their comfort zone on a regular basis, you know, taking them out of work and having, having conversations with them maybe, you know, once a month or whatever.

Kristy Hunter (14:18) Absolutely. Yep, completely agree.

Sarah (14:36) Yeah, absolutely, I think.

Simon (14:37) Has anyone sort of done that on a regular basis?

Kristy Hunter (14:44) I try to do like checkpoints like every kind of three months. Monthly can be a bit much for some people. Like I'm having internal WIT meetings like once a week with like teams and things like that. So that keeps people accountable. And it also really highlights, you know, the productivity and, you know, people's, what they're good at and what they're not so good at. So it's good for me to go, right, we've been having this meeting and this is what I found and here's the results. And you can check in at that three month mark.

Simon (14:50) Yeah. Mm.

Kristy Hunter (15:14) and go, this is how we're tracking, here's the areas of improvement. A lot of the time it's communication, you know, and expectation setting.

Simon (15:21) Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, let's talk about those resolutions. You know, again, that your challenge can be you're communicating well, you're sending whips, you're sending contact reports. But is there anything else Sarah that you can sort of think of that will be a, you know, a decent resolution or things that you would perhaps put in place that might, you know, make it easier for them to understand what's being done?

Sarah (15:49) Yeah, obviously like monthly report, like the contact reports are great because it provides an overview of what you've been doing for them, but being able to provide a monthly report as well which outlines statistics and the success that you've had for them over that particular month. So through all the different platforms you're using.

Simon (16:07) Yeah.

Sarah (16:12) For me, especially through like Ecom, it's all the email marketing, the website, the social media is just providing them with an update on that and comparing it to what the market's doing as well so that they can actually see the success and the progress that they're getting from you. I think it's really beneficial for them.

Simon (16:33) What about you Charlie, something that you might put in place that would potentially sort of help in terms of long -term communication?

Charlie Syme (16:40) Yeah, look, I was thinking about what you guys were chatting about before and beyond like the reports and the administrative side of our jobs. I think...sort of that level of rapport and being able to be real with the client. Like even if they are difficult, if you can sit down with them and they can tell you what they're upset about or why they're being difficult, then that's, you're going to learn something. And you know, maybe the end of that conversation is look, maybe this isn't working out, but, that's probably better than sticking in a situation that's not working for either of you. So yeah, maybe it's a beer or a coffee or a different venue or it's find some way to crack through that like level of passive aggressiveness and talk honestly.

Simon (17:27) And that's an interesting point as well because sometimes it's not necessarily you or the marketing or something that they're angry about. Sometimes they're angry about something else. It's just manifesting itself in a way that...

Charlie Syme (17:36) Yeah.

Kristy Hunter (17:37) Hmm.

Simon (17:40) you're the target, know, maybe you're the immediate person in focus there. So that's who they're potentially taking it out on. Have you seen instances, Kristy, where there's perhaps been a bigger picture that you've, that perhaps on the face of it that you were missing?

Kristy Hunter (17:58) Yeah, look, I think I try to build that rapport with CEOs because, you know, it's lonely at the top, generally speaking. And so I allow them to not I don't actually recommend this all the time, but I allow allow them to vent and let them speak their mind and whether I agree with it or not, it's just you're the listening ear for them and I think that just helps to build that relationship for the short and the long term. And I think that you can gain a lot of respect, know, just being there and available for them. know, sometimes it happens outside of hours and things like that, but you've got to create some boundaries there. But yeah, I think that generally speaking, leaders just are very lonely and isolated and it can be really stressful and frustrating. And they just want to have someone near them that can hear them and listen to them.

Simon (18:31) Yeah.

Kristy Hunter (18:59) So I allow that sometimes.

Simon (19:02) What about you, Sarah? Have you perhaps missed the bigger picture sometimes with clients?

Sarah (19:09) Yeah absolutely I'm a bit of an emotional person so I take things to heart quite regularly. So I think something that I've learnt from that and it's probably where I've missed it in the past is that you can't...you can take things quite emotionally and personally. you're taking a step back and actually looking at the situation. You might actually see it clearer and that it's not actually a big deal. It's not the big deal that you think it is when it first happens. So, yeah.

Simon (19:39) Hmm. Yeah, I think there's a couple of things that sort of resonate for me is that often we're dealing with businesses where every dollar that they're spending is potentially a dollar that would normally go in their pay packet or their back pocket or however you want to define it. So for them, that dollar is a lot more precious than perhaps you know, a corporate CEO or a bigger CEO who doesn't necessarily own, you know, that much of the business or owns a small part of the business or is still going to get paid irrespective of how much the marketing budget is. So sometimes we don't see that there is a, you know, the, sensitivity around money, certainly with people who've come from perhaps nothing or have struggled to get to where they they've got to. And the other thing that I often say and be interested in it. So if you've seen the same thing, Charlie is, you know, where there's other relationships within the business, because we've talked about solo CEOs and solo business owners, but we haven't necessarily talked about where there are other dynamics at play, where there's not just the CEO, but the CEO's partner or the, and I mean, you know, personal partner as well as business partners and board members and all those kinds of things. you had that challenge as well, Charlie?

Charlie Syme (21:02) Yeah, so I actually am currently working with two husband and wife teams, business owners and business partners.

Simon (21:10) Yeah.

Charlie Syme (21:13) And look, it's great. Like, you know, it's, fun and I get to know them both. But yeah, there's obviously a dynamic there. And to their credit, one of them said to me when I, when I came on board, they said, listen, we're, we're a married business partnership. So we push the boundaries, but we're not in terms of like hours and commitment, but you know, that's not an expectation that you have to do that as well. So she was basically telling me watch your own boundaries which you know I respected but it's a different dynamic for sure.

Simon (21:45) Mm. What about you, Kristy? Husband and wife teams, are they the best or are the worst?

Kristy Hunter (21:53) I don't love them. The experiences that I've had with them, they seem to not communicate overly well with each other.

Simon (22:02) Right, okay. Yeah.

Kristy Hunter (22:03) And so that just was like, well, who am I listening to here? You know, you're both the owners. You're both kind of trying to give me direction or your thoughts or whatever. But at the end of the day, I'm like, OK, so the wife said this, but the husband saying this, like, can you guys just kind of get your shit together a little bit here, please?

Simon (22:07) Yeah. Yeah. Now, Sarah, we know a very, very, you know, successful bit husband and wife team that you've worked for and I know quite well. So I'll ask you the same question, but you're going to have to be really careful how you say how you answer this one, they'll know it's they'll know it's them. Right. But but you've you've been in that situation and and I would probably say the people that we talk about, very smart, very strong personalities, how do you navigate that husband and wife dynamic?

Sarah (22:53) Yeah, that was obviously a fun time in my marketing career working with those guys. They definitely, you know, I haven't had the same situation as Christie with them. They obviously had their different perspectives and ways that they wanted to run the business. One was the creative and one was the money person. So it was, you know, obviously just navigating that but I always I always spent a lot of time with them so I managed to just you know get everyone in the same room and put together a plan for the next month and everyone agreed upon it at that point and that's what we ran with and we kept doing that on a monthly basis so and because I was there regularly we kept the communication stream open.

Simon (23:39) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Look, I mean...

Sarah (23:49) I was also very strong in telling them how I thought it needed to go as well.

Simon (23:56) Well, and I think that was the good thing is I think and we you know, we've we've you've all mentioned it the fact that the relationship and the dynamic that you're allowed that you could have those conversations with them is that would that be fair to say that they you know, it was an open enough room that you could talk to them in a way that was honest and open. Was that that be fair with who we're talking about there, sir? Assuming we're talking about the same people? Yeah.

Sarah (24:14) Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yes, absolutely. No, that were, yeah, definitely open conversations. You know, I mean, a lot of the times it was me and the wife shutting the husband down, but that's okay as well because we both were the creatives in the situation. So we knew what we wanted for the marketing.

Kristy Hunter (24:36) Ha ha ha ha.

Simon (24:40) Yeah. Is it that because that that's a day? Yeah, that's a danger that you get stuck in that middle, you know, and trying to get yourself out of that, you know, if you face that Charlie where there's that, that husband and wife dynamic, and it's quite tension, there's tension there and you're sort of, you're almost playing marriage counselor at some points.

Charlie Syme (25:03) Look, thankfully not. haven't gone that deep, but there are nuances to it. Like Sarah said, she does the money, he does the creative or vice versa. So learning those dynamics and how they interact and I guess you figure out how you can get things through both of them.

Simon (25:26) Yeah. So look, we've spoken and sort of about, you know, all the challenges that you face. Is there a time, Kristy, when you've just gone, fuck this, I'm outta here?

Kristy Hunter (25:41) Yes. About three times.

Simon (25:45) Okay, well tell us about one of those. Again, let's hold back on names and be too descriptive about it, but yeah.

Kristy Hunter (25:51) Yeah, yeah, yeah, so this was probably a couple of years ago now where I acquired the client just after COVID and it was all very exciting and it was all going well. So I did their initial strategy and did their crowdfunding campaign and they were very successful with that. And then because they had this investment, you know, the money backing them, they were able to build out a team. So the initial team was awesome to work with, but some new team members that came on board just were just way too involved with marketing, thought they were, you know, understood it. One was actually, yeah,

Simon (26:25) Yeah.

Kristy Hunter (26:29) a compliance person, one was a salesperson and it ended up being that these new people were just talking to me like I just in a very rude manner like really disrespectful and the CEO did nothing like he just sat there and let it happen in meetings which he was in.

Simon (26:42) Yeah.

Kristy Hunter (26:50) So when I spoke up for myself a couple of times and I really enjoy working with men, but all of them are men. And so when I stood up for myself and, you know, spoke to the facts, they didn't like hearing it. And so when that happened a few times and a couple of conversations that I had with the CEO to say, hey,

Simon (26:57) Right.

Kristy Hunter (27:11) this is what's happening, this is unacceptable and his not doing anything about it I just said hey I'm out, I can't do this anymore it's a complete misalignment so we can't work together.

Simon (27:19) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Was that a weight off your shoulders as you made that call?

Kristy Hunter (27:27) So good. Because you're kind of weighing up, you're like, well, how much, like you're making some good money here versus is it really worth this from a mental health perspective and the stress that it's bringing me and, you know, every time I had a meeting with him, I'm dreading it. I just wasn't enjoying it in any way, shape or form. No.

Simon (27:31) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's, not a good place to be. What about you, Sarah? Have you walked out? Because Sarah's sort of, I could say from, from Sarah's perspective versus everyone else, Sarah's kind of slightly earlier on in her career and doing this, this kind of thing. But, you know, have you, have you sort of gone, I don't want to do this anymore.

Sarah (28:05) Yes, I have actually. And it hasn't been too long ago that I did it. But it was just because, you know, at the same time, it's, you do what you do because you want the, I guess, the flexibility and the ability to work with customers that you like to work with that appreciate the work that you do for them and recognise the work that you do for them. And when you're under appreciated and... you, you're not getting that recognition as well. I'm not saying you need to, you know, blow streamers or anything, but yeah, just, it's just, you get to a point where you're like, I don't have time for this. I've got, you know, there's so many other fish in the sea that I can work with and provide my marketing experience. yeah, I just sort of, okay.

Simon (28:41) Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny because I know where you're starting next week, week after, is it next week? Two weeks time and I know for a fact that...you know, they love Sarah to bits, you know, and it's somewhat of a, let's call it an interesting work environment, but they love you. I think they very much, I think certain people in there very much appreciate you, you know, even if they, you know, so I can see that there's, it's all about, you don't want, you want a bit of recognition. You don't necessarily want people, as you say, streamers, but you you want to feel that they recognize the value that you bring to the team. So Charlie, what about you? Have you sort of gone fuck this and, you know, drop the mic and walked out?

Charlie Syme (29:50) I haven't done it in a necessarily like before time sort of thing like I've seen it through but

Simon (29:57) Yeah.

Charlie Syme (30:00) I'll never let go of it because as Sarah said, it's one of the core benefits of doing what we do. Everyone's probably had an experience in their life where they finally left a job or a gig and thought, why did I stay so long? Yeah, there's absolutely a point where it's just not worth it. And that's for everyone involved, for you and probably the client as well. yeah, you best just call it at some point.

Simon (30:31) I probably, my story is I actually got escorted off the premises once as a consultant. So that's my, what did I do? I'd spent six months telling this guy what he should be doing and dealing with his...

Charlie Syme (30:35) Hahaha

Kristy Hunter (30:37) What did you do?

Simon (30:47) I was dealing with his subcontractors, so his web developers and all these kind of people, and they just simply weren't doing anything. And I repeatedly keep telling him over and over. And for those of you that know me, certainly Kristy and Sarah and Charlie doesn't know me quite as well, but you can imagine my tolerance for that sort of waned over time, the fact that he wasn't listening to me. And it got to a point where I was, I got quite angry with him.

Simon (31:14) And he just basically said, right, well, get out of my building. The funny thing was I kept trying to argue the point and I should have just walked, but I kept trying to argue the point. So he's, yeah, I know, again, you know me too well, Sarah.

Sarah (31:26) You surprise us.

Simon (31:31) but he's sort of, not necessarily manhandled me out of the building, like, you know, he's made me leave the building. And for a long time, I thought I was in the wrong. And over the years, I've met other people that have worked with him and literally the stories are similar. I mean, they haven't been thrown out of the building, but they've all gone and just said, he doesn't listen to anything you tell him. And I've gone, okay, at least now I know I was in the right with that little bit but so yeah, look my last question for everyone here just you know there's there's there's a lot to take in when you're starting out in this journey you know if you're starting out as a consultant but even the ones that have been doing this for you know a long year you know 10, 20 years and so on and so forth but what would be perhaps the one thing that you would say that, and not just clients, but we're talking about difficult clients now, but that one thing that you would give as a piece of advice to, maybe to you the day that you started doing this, if you could pull yourself aside and go, Kristy, listen to this and pay attention to this, what would you say to younger Kristy?

Kristy Hunter (32:45) that's a tough one. I think lean into what you know, like be really confident in what you know, your skills, your knowledge and, you know, your previous experience in other roles and what you've achieved. And I think turn up just really like bold, know, like just, you know, and say, hey, this is how I work with my clients. If it doesn't kind of suit you, if this doesn't, you know, this way of working doesn't fit with you, well then maybe we're not a good fit and we can't work together. But if it is the way that you would work well as well, like in a collaborative way and are willing to work within like my proven frameworks and strategies, then let's roll because we'll get there and we'll get, you know, reach your goals. So I think positioning yourself with confidence that you are the right person for their business.

Simon (33:38) Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Charlie? What would you say to younger Charlie?

Charlie Syme (33:55) Well, I mentioned it earlier, but this is also just a reminder for me to keep up with it because it's probably not something I would instinctively do well at. the documentation really covers your ass. something I had to learn, something I got burned by not doing when a client says, well, what have you been doing the last six months? So I need to remember to do it. And it helps you out very much.

Simon (34:07) Yeah. Yeah. Sarah, what are you going to tell young Sarah? Other than, other than don't drink as much when you go out.

Sarah (34:27) Well, I am young, so. And I drink. The documentation definitely is one thing, but I will obviously, you know, I do a lot of writing, so when I work with a client, I always document what I've done anyway, but that's internally. So it's also then being able to provide that to the client over the period of time as well, which is probably that communication that I would have told myself in the past to do, but also knowing your worth. So going in knowing what you're worth with the client, not undervaluing yourself because at the end of the day, the clients that are the smaller clients are probably the ones that are to expect the most of you as well.

Simon (35:02) Yeah. Mm. My point to add onto all of this is...knowing your worth, think is a great thing. And I'm going to sort of flip that in on its head a bit because this is something and I turned 50 recently. I know I don't look it but it's taken me this long to realize this, right? Is that there are certain things and there is a lot of certain things that I am not very good at, right? And I think if I could tell younger Simon would be to learn the things that you're not good at and delegate them somewhere else to somebody who is good at doing them because I think I've spent too long working with myself, with business partners, with clients, whatever it is, trying to do things that I'm not good at.

Kristy Hunter (36:00) Hmm.

Simon (36:14) and subsequently then not looking as good or not performing as well as I could do if I'd sit there on day one and gone, I'm shit at this, this, this, this, and I'm good at this, this. So I'm gonna do these things and I'm gonna get someone else to do all these things. And I think the moment you sit there and go, nah, I'm not good at that and acknowledge that and move it somewhere else and get someone who is good at it to do it, all of a sudden you become so much more effective and so much more impactful than you trying to struggle through doing shit thing, doing things shitty. So that's my final lesson. Last thing I wanna do is just quickly go around. If people wanna talk to you in more detail, what's the best way of reaching out to you and contacting you? We'll start with Charlie. Where can we best find Charlie?

Charlie Syme (37:02) Well you can find my website at pigface.au or LinkedIn, it's also very easy.

Simon (37:08) And very quickly Charlie, in 10 seconds, why Pigface Marketing?

Charlie Syme (37:13) Pigface is a beautiful Australian succulent, often found in sand dunes. They grow anywhere.

Kristy Hunter (37:20) There you go.

Simon (37:21) I was today today days old when I found that out. So okay. So thank you very much. Thank you very much for your time, Charlie. Kristy, what about yourself? Where can everybody find you?

Kristy Hunter (37:36) I'm everywhere. Huntermarketing.co website, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, all the places, but I'm also just out and about networking all the time.

Simon (37:37)Yeah. Awesome. All right. And last but definitely not least, Sarah.

Sarah (37:47) so my website, linkedin, facebook, instagram and that's about it.

Simon (37:58) Awesome, thank you very much guys for your time. been super, super helpful. Really appreciate it. Have a good rest of your Friday.

Sarah (38:04)Thank you.

Charlie Syme (38:05) Thanks guys. See you later.