Building Online Trust with Mal McCallion

Simon Dell chats with Growtion Managing Director Mal McCallion on the value of building online trust through marketing content.


Simon Dell: Welcome to the show, Mal McCallion. You are currently in a place called St. Ives in the UK.

Mal McCallion: That is true.

Simon Dell: And you’re the CEO of Growtion. Have I pronounced that correctly?

Mal McCallion: You have, yes.

Simon Dell: Excellent. Now, I’m not going to make any St. Ives jokes because there’s about a thousand dirty limericks. I once met a man from St. Ives and something.

Mal McCallion: And so on, yeah.

Simon Dell: Right, yes. Maybe we might do one of those at the end.

Mal McCallion: [INAUDIBLE]. [laughs]

Simon Dell: Get labelled on YouTube for over-18 content. Tell me all about Growtion. Tell me what you do.

Mal McCallion: Sure. In fact, so great to be here and it’s been snowing over here. You have beautiful sunshine, so I’m very, very jealous. What I do over here in the freezing cold St. Ives is: Growtion is a business that’s all focused around growth execution, which is what the name comes from, those two words smashed together.

And it sort of started out when I got involved with some startups back in the early 2000’s. So, there’s a business over here called, which is a property portal, luxury property, and I was one of six who helped set it up way back in 2000.

And we sold that for £48 million in 2005. So, that kind of got me the bug for startups and kind of high growth businesses, and I was really kind of interested in why certain businesses went like that, and other businesses did not.

The same six kinds of people, sitting around the same kinds of tables in the same kinds of offices. And yet, something triggered or some combination of events, or processes, or strategies led one business to go really well and one not. And so, I started off focused on that – I was fortunate enough to be involved in, actually as they came over to the UK.

And they started a subsidiary over here called, and that was great fun, ended up in the magazine business for a little while. And then a business called Zoopla came along. Zoopla started up over here, and that is now the second largest property portal [INAUDIBLE 00:04:27].

So, we built Zoopla from scratch in 2011, and that sold two years ago for £2.2 billion. And so, I’ve just been really lucky to be part of some really strong growth stories. And what I’ve done with Growtion is tried and distil it down for SME business to: What are the core components of a business that is able to be successful versus one that doesn’t make it?

And essentially, Growtion folks [INAUDIBLE 00:04:58] and that is pretty much how basic, again, this is the idea that we’ve boiled down to, but within each of those broad topics, product marketing and sales, I’ve got five different elements that I look at. So, I’m pretty much a nerd, and that’s why I just went, boil everything down to, “Is there a process? Can I find a process that does [INAUDIBLE 00:05:25]?” And that’s pretty much where it came from.

Simon Dell: And are you, in your iteration now, do businesses come to you and they pay you for coaching, or is it a membership thing, or do you invest time and take a share in the business? How do you fund yourself now?

Mal McCallion: Yeah. Great question. So, there’s three broad categories of that as well. So, one is pure consultancy? So, I will be paid for even days of retainer on retainer plus success fees. So, I spend a lot of time, I think, probably a majority of my time in sales.

So, one of the things that you probably observed as well is entrepreneurs, SME entrepreneurs in general, they do it from a passionate point of view. So, what they’re doing is it is pretty much what their dream is. Not all the time, but often. So, the product side of things, they kind of understand mostly what they want to do and what to do with those and shape that a little bit.

And in the marketing side, they’re sort of creative, so they do get really excited about getting the marketing stuff together. But it’s the sales side that tend to just – it’s almost like dirty work. They don’t want to get stuck into it. This is such a beautiful thing that they’re doing, their business is so lovely, and marketing [INAUDIBLE 00:06:38] that stuff out there, but the last thing they want to do is pick up the phone and you hear somebody tell them that their baby is ugly. Right?

They don’t want to hear somebody saying to them, “Look, this really doesn’t work for me” because their dream is that it works for everybody. So, I spend a lot of time in sales. And as part of that, I then can take a success fee in terms of the level of sales we do and or [INAUDIBLE 00:06:58] business and so on. In that side of things, it kind of depends.

What I have kind of been doing since the lockdown started over here, and a lot of the face-to-face stuff and the go-around business stuff has obviously changed. So, what I’ve been doing, what I’ve been really focused on over the last year or so is getting everything online.

So, we have an online course up there now, Growth Execution Academy, then there’s stuff up there all about how to launch a business. That’s obviously a first step. And they also have various bits and pieces. So, there’s a book coming in a month or two I think around that as well. So, really, as I have been focused on different ways of working, and finding, and discovering different ways of getting my own business out there… Obviously, that’s helped me to look at other strategies and other tactics for my products as well.

Simon Dell: One of the things I wanted to touch on today was that you have a section on your website to give away intellectual property, IP, ideas, all that kind of thing, various tools and stuff like that. And I think for most people who are in marketing, who are in a business, understand the idea of giving something away free of charge in order to attract someone’s attention and capture someone’s interest.

From a small business perspective, what do you find works the best? Because I mean, there’s a thousand e-books out there. With limited resources and limited time, what can a small business do to attract those people in using content?

Mal McCallion: Right. So, there’s two things that I specifically focus on. And the first of them, and you talked about ebooks, that’s a really valid way of releasing [INAUDIBLE 00:08:53] out there. But one of the things about that that really needs to be in place is it needs to be really specific. So, you need to think about the question that your clients ask you most often.

So, what is that question? Is it: How do I reach this particular audience? If it’s a kind of marketing business, they might get asked “How do I get the maximum reach for money?” Whatever that specific question is, that needs to be the title of your booklet, or your little PDF, or whatever, and you need to get as much SEO as you can as possible.

If you think the question is slightly a bit off the wall, it’s not necessarily being asked by many others, not being serviced by many other people, that of course is brilliant too. But if you can get something that’s really in your sweet spot, the thing that you are here to do that answers the question that you are asked most often by your clients.

So, for example, one of the things that we get is about pricing, so, “How do I price my product?” And that’s something that’s a little bit kind of to the side from the mainstream, but it’s something that we get asked all the time. So, there’s a lot of stuff we put out there around that.

So, find that question. Write something that is just a very straightforward sort of PDF that you can save up, and then you can make it available on a landing page on your website. That I have found continues to be something that people [INAUDIBLE 00:10:20] all the time, if I can’t fix part of my [INAUDIBLE 00:10:23] or whatever, you search for stuff. You try and find an answer online.

So, there are people searching right now for this solution that we provide by asking the question that you ask most often, because [INAUDIBLE 00:10:36]. So, that I think is a really, really strong way of generating those inbound leads.

Simon Dell: Just to jump in there before we do the second one. I totally agree with everything that you say there. I guess one of the things I often say to clients is: Often, writing is a big challenge, especially for technical clients and people that are used to doing things with their hands.

I know writing technically uses your hands, but people who are in the tools in the job, sitting there writing something down is often painful for them. So, would you sort of say to people, “You don’t have to write these things yourself. You could go out and get contract copywriters.” I actually saw a sign on the web the other day where you could buy ebooks already written.

And whilst you’re giving your second example, I might dig out whatever that was. People don’t have to do it themselves, do they? They could find someone else to help them with this sort of thing.

Mal McCallion: That’s true. So, I would highly recommend that this is a – because this has to convert. When people see that, and read that, and look at that, they’ve got to know that your competence, it shines through. If writing is not a part of your competencies, then don’t worry about it. Go find the skill set that does that.

But it’s the equivalent of, in my mind, it’s the equivalent of getting [INAUDIBLE 00:11:59]. I am absolutely terrible with doing all the accountancy stuff, but I get somebody to do that because that just wastes my time and makes me sad.

So, get somebody who does this stuff for a living, somebody who’s really, really good at it and get them to help you out. And yes, if you’re thinking about sort of cash exchange businesses potentially, if you know somebody who’s really good at it, then ask them. But certainly, don’t present something out there that is going to be the first thing that people see about you, or learn about you, or know about you that isn’t doing justice to what you are here to do and the people you’re claiming to serve, because those people will necessarily then become slightly alienated.

The other idea with that is then to potentially go down this second route, which is much more about it’s a questionnaire, alright? So, it’s kind of like a score card. We use these as well, but I found out that’s really good, it’s Typeform. And again, there’s a free version of it as well. There’s a very low-cost monthly fee for it. It’s a system that’s out there. It’s just really good.

And what you can do and what I’ve done is created a growth execution scorecard which essentially asks 30-odd questions, and it takes like two, three minutes. All you do is you go in and answer the questions, really simple, really straightforward. It’s all bundled up.

And at the end of it, it can present a score against some, for example, [INAUDIBLE 00:13:27]. It is about how well you’re growing. So, it’s relevant to my business, so I need it to help me grow. It gives you a score of how well you’re doing. And it’s not like a serious [INAUDIBLE 00:13:42] score grade or anything like that. But it’s fun.

People, they give me loads of data on the back of that and then I am able to then approach them with full information about what their business is like, how they think it’s going. We ask questions like, “Do you [INAUDIBLE 00:13:58] teams? Is there somebody else [INAUDIBLE 00:14:01] say?” Just fun stuff to keep it emotionally relevant as well as factual.

And what that then does is that gives us some really high-quality leads that you can then go and really start to help people straight off the bat. So, those two things I think are genuinely really useful.

Simon Dell: I presume with someone filling in a questionnaire, I’ve always found the challenge to be: They’ve got to want to fill in the questionnaire. And I know that seems like the most obvious statement ever, but dragging someone to fill in a questionnaire kicking and screaming is not a pleasant experience.

People won’t do it. People don’t fill in questionnaires if they don’t want to fill in questionnaires. Do you, where you are at in your business, are you kind of almost feels like you’re waiting for people to be motivated to want to change or to want to grow their business?

Are you waiting for those people that are motivated to make change to come to you, or are you pushing that question there out in front of people and saying: Why don’t you have a serious think about this?

Mal McCallion: Great question. In Growtion, we’ve got a lot of different assets that we push out to different [INAUDIBLE 00:15:24]. So, one of the main ways that we advertise is the fact that this score card is here [INAUDIBLE 00:15:30] a booklet with three launch essentials.

So, what are the three things that you need to launch your business? And it is three of these elements. So, every single day since lockdown started in the 23rd of March, we release a growth execution tip. It’s about 250-300 words every day. There’s a little video as well, there’s 250 of them, and the intention of that is to identify those that are [INAUDIBLE 00:16:05].

So, I’ve got a list of people who are registered to receive these over time, and we send it out. And every single day, it’s open by people with businesses, and what they do is they just [INAUDIBLE 00:16:20] it. And within that, I will be in bed, the idea of the scorecard, or the idea of the launch handbook.

And more and more, what we’re doing is we’re going out to the places where these people hang out. So, my core is entrepreneurs, founders, growth leaders, alright? So, people who are interested in growing their business.

Now, where do they hang out? They’re on startup groups on Facebook and LinkedIn. There are forums for groups like this. There are people who refer people, who refer people who put some incentives for them, these growth tips.

And every week I do a newsletter, there’s a podcast, and just like yourself, it goes out every week as well. And so, there’s a lot of work around this idea of growth execution, so actually executing on it, rather than just theory, this is some top tips about how you can actually get on and grow your business.

And that necessarily surfaces a load of people for whom this is the answer to their challenge. Again, growing a business is really, really hard and there is a zillion different ways of doing it and a zillion different ways of not doing it. And what we try and do is map some core skills into individual tendencies that are actionable, not just this kind of airy-fairy we’re going to consult with you, we’re going to give you some ideas and away you go. So, this is doing with you rather than doing it yourself.

Simon Dell: Just to take a step back to that, something you said right at the start there about those six founders sitting around a table and you trying to work out what was different there than perhaps other iterations of business and other things that you’d seen fail in the past, what do you think was different out of that? What suddenly made that a success? We all know there’s no silver bullet for these things, but normally there’s a couple of things in there that you go, “Here’s some things that we did differently this time.”

Mal McCallion: Yeah, absolutely. And you’re absolutely right. There is, for better or worse, and of course there’s different individuals that of course come in different skill sets and different attitudes and all that sort of thing. But if there’s one thing that is the key thing for me, it is that everybody knows what the issue is.

And that from the founder or founders, to the senior, to the team on the ground, to in fact and including investors, to the customers, to the significant others of the individuals within the business as well, everybody gets it.

And what that does is a number of different things. First of all, that mission has to be something that’s quite important to everybody. One of the things about setting that out and articulating it really, really coherently and competitively is that it allows people to buy in and also dissuades those that are going to be a problem. The last thing you need on a team of six is one person who is quite disaffected by it and just turns up to take the money, because one person out of six is a lot of percentage of the business.

So, we need everybody dovetailing behind this kind of core mission. And that mission needs to be obviously solving a problem. And the question that I get clients to answer first thing all the time is actually the question early on is: Why are you solving this problem? And it’s this why. Why am I solving this problem?

And just like that, this is the start of our conversation here. What we’re here to do at Growtion, which is to help [INAUDIBLE 00:19:47] to grow. What you need to do in your business and everybody needs to do in their business is be really, really clear about what the problem is and why you’re solving it.

And that gives permission to people to really get behind it and allows them to lead a discretionary effort. There are times when they’re sitting one evening, have got their laptop open in front of them and they’re working without direction but actually working on the same problem, it’s those moments where somebody else, when you as a founder perhaps aren’t directly involved but your mission, the articulation of that has helped this person to be incentivized to do it themselves.

It’s really that that kind of almost solves everything else. If you can get that team together, and it’s hard, and people, sometimes they change and sometimes things go awry and stuff like that. But at its heart, the really good businesses, startups and SMEs I have observed, the ones that are really successful are the ones that get that mission, that get that why right, and then engage with those [INAUDIBLE 00:20:51] that mission is also important from an investor’s point of view [INAUDIBLE 00:20:55].

Simon Dell: I guess anybody watching this has got an existing business they want to grow, and it might be in the traditional marketplace or they might be a business that’s been done a thousand times before. They might be a plumber. They might be a builder. They might be an accountant. How are they presenting a mission statement to inspire people? I often find that a challenge, certainly with accountants. But how are they motivated? How do you motivate people with something like that?

Mal McCallion: I think it’s not always, although it is something, but perhaps the very specific [INAUDIBLE 00:21:35] when we have this big sign up in the office, and it’s kind of a big call-to-arms sort of poster where everybody has to chant it at the beginning of every day.

It’s not for me quite that. What it is is just this repetitive and constant just observation and articulating of what we are all here to do. Going back to Primelocation days for example, what we were there to do was to aggregate. And some of it is not particularly sexy or anything like that, but we were there to aggregate those luxury properties, enable people to discover their dream homes.

And then from a luxury perspective, [INAUDIBLE 00:22:11] really, really easy. And so, everything we did was about, right, we want people to be able to find their dream luxury home really easy. And that just means that everything becomes a lot more straightforward.

Even when you’re making tiny decisions about how you save data into a database or whether you use a database, how you’re going to approach these sales conversations, what it is that you’re looking for in a customer as well as what they’re looking for in you.

So, if you are a plumber, or an accountant, or something like that, then the reason that you’ve set this up and the reason you’ve founded this business is something probably quite [INAUDIBLE 00:22:47], something quite deep. It must be that you want to provide for your family, of course. But you can do that [INAUDIBLE 00:22:53], right? The reason you set this business up is you probably want a bit of autonomy. You probably worked in businesses that you don’t like, and that’s probably a good touchstone as well, is actually finding reasons why you are now in this position.

You want to fix all that stuff. So, you want to build a business that is perhaps [INAUDIBLE 00:23:12] or is just a lot cooler than the accounting firms you worked in the past. Whatever that is, find a way of articulating it to yourself, put it out there on a poster, understand it, really know it, sit and think about it.

You spend a lot of time in whiteboards and kind of really [INAUDIBLE 00:23:32] is that really it, or is there something else behind it? Because genuinely, once you work that out and once you sit there with them and just go, [INAUDIBLE 00:23:45] to do.

It’s not like you’re going to suddenly change the world and you’ve got to charge forward with 10,000 people behind you, but it is your little corner of the world, your skill set, and your team around you, and your goal in life by articulating them, by knowing that deep, then you’re able to – it becomes evident, and it becomes something that other people working in the business could see.

And there will be some people potentially that you can really talk to about it and be very honest and open about it, that they get a broad understanding of what it is that you’re doing. And perhaps you don’t need them to buy in that much, but certainly for businesses with co-founders, where you have got investors, where you are asking a lot of your family. I would also say, suggest, it’s probably quite a good thing for them to understand what the real deal is. I think that having that in your head and being able to at least acknowledge it to yourself is going to be something that – that this really [INAUDIBLE] supercharge it, because it does. It just means that so many [INAUDIBLE].

Simon Dell: It’s interesting you mention the word mantra early on in that piece there about, you don’t have to have a mantra that everyone chants. I’ve read a lot. There’s a book by Daniel Coyle, I think. And I’m not going to be able to remember the book now, but he talked about the success of teams that he investigated over the years, people like the Marines.

There was a big restaurant company in New York. He’d started the All Blacks and he said, in all of them, all of those ultra-successful teams, they all had exactly what you said, which is that they’ve all had this mission statement.

They all know what it is that they’re there to achieve. And he spoke about the restaurant company. He said even the bus boys who were collecting the plates, all the way down to them up to the head chefs. They all knew the mission of this big restaurant chain. Everybody knew it.

But he also made the point that some of them do have that mantra there, is that there’s a chant at the start of the day, and he goes, “It feels weird.” When you look at it from the outside, it feels like you’re in some sort of cult, which is essentially what it is.

And it’s funny. I had the conversation with a lady who I was coaching the other day who was talking about starting an MMA fighting gym. She was 30-odd years old. She’d been fighting since she was 10. She’d be able to beat the shit out of me in a heartbeat probably using one arm.

I said to her what we need to do, whatever we do, we need to create a mascot for your gym that we create – and she had something like, not the fighting fairy or something like that. She had one in her head. I said we need to create a mascot that we can get a big sticker, a big decor the size of the width of my arms on the wall by the entrance.

And you need to say to everybody, every time they come to the gym, they have to high five the fairy on the way in and on the way out. So, you’re not allowed to come in and do any training or any fighting unless you high-five the fairy.

And it was little things like that that I go, “Yes, you can have a mission statement and have everyone talk about it.” And that’s super important, but those little mantras, those little repetitive reminders of what you stand for aren’t hard to do. A sticker of a fairy that you high-five isn’t hard to actually get done. None of this needs to be overly complicated. It just needs to be thought about.

Mal McCallion: That’s right. I absolutely agree. I think that the mantra side of things can work, right? We have to look at various things that really get people motivated and get people really intensely and emotionally charged. And that I think is what a mantra does, but that’s not for every business.

Some businesses like WeWork, for example, there was always this kind of mysticism and cultishness around the founder. And that can be true in various businesses, and perhaps in some of the really hypergrowth businesses. It’s almost a kind of prerequisite. People have to almost leave a certain amount of equity or faculties at the door because they’ve got to just believe, and believe, and believe and not ask questions.

Simon Dell: Tesla would be the number one example, yeah.

Mal McCallion: Yeah, exactly. Just believe in the Musk. Just keep going. Don’t question. And I think that can work in some businesses. We see that being more successful. And I think what you are doing is perfect as well. To seeing those clues and particularly physically interacting with them with the high-five, and that will work for businesses where that founder and that energy is there for that to be a really core part of the brand, where [INAUDIBLE 00:28:41] what people are here to buy into.

And for others, it will be just being able to, on a weekly basis, seeing the accountancy gazette, a panel of [INAUDIBLE 00:28:54]. That core belief that basically this is an accountancy that’s focused on [INAUDIBLE 00:29:02] type things and stuff like that.

So, whatever those clues, those cues are, and whether they are visual, whether it’s a bit of music at the start of every day or whatever it is, it just reinforces the brand values of the business and what the business is here for, and enables everybody to repeatedly buy in. Because that’s what you’re asking people to do, whether they high-five the fairy or whatever. You are essentially inviting them to commit once more to what it is that this stands for, and that’s really the key thing and that’s what makes these businesses grow.

Simon Dell: The beauty of high-fiving a fairy, Mal, is you are now going to be thinking about high-fiving a fairy for the rest of the day.

Mal McCallion: Do you know what? I’m trying to work out how I can actually get that into my day somehow every day. I’ve got a bit of wall over there.

Simon Dell: Before we finish up, I want to ask you about the thing behind you, because for those of us that were born in the UK and did A-level chemistry, that’s kind of giving me a nasty flashback.

Mal McCallion: Welcome back to your childhood.

Simon Dell: Is that your business table of elements, is it?

Mal McCallion: Yeah, it is.

Simon Dell: What can I see in there? Is it bigger than that? Is there more?

Mal McCallion: It is. So, there’s 15 of them and I’m going to show you a little bit. So, these are the 15 elements of business growth, organized by us here at Growtion. And there’s five in products, up in the top right, which is the dark blue, product concept, product design, service, pricing, USP. And your five in marketing, and then you’ve got five in sales.

So, the idea is that this is a very visual guide, and we talked about the fairy, right? This is a visual guide where I am consulting with clients on Zoom or whatever and diagnose which part of this they are perhaps challenged with most right now.

Perhaps it is their marketing brand. [INAUDIBLE 00:30:53] another thing that they’re doing as well or marketing intel, or the content side of things [INAUDIBLE 00:30:58]. But yes, it’s deliberately put together in the way of that a periodic table to suggest that there is a formula to this. This is throwing you back to A-level chemistry, and by actually having [INAUDIBLE 00:31:13]. So, it is basically that there is a formula and a structure to successful business growth and that this can help you to get it. So, that’s all it is. [INAUDIBLE 00:31:27].

Simon Dell: The other thing I like about it is that you’ve taken what is, I guess within those 15 elements there, none of it is radically unique. Essentially, what you’ve done is productized your knowledge and put it in a nice, presentable, memorable format that makes you stand out.

And I guess part of what you do in product with other clients is to say all that knowledge that you have in your head or that your team has, we need to create something here that’s memorable, that’s going to stick into people’s heads. And certainly, a periodic table of business elements is fantastic.

Mal McCallion: Thanks. And you’re absolutely right. Whatever business your listeners are in, it’s very difficult to find something brand, brand new. All you’re really doing is frequently doing the same stuff as many others, but you’re doing it in your own way and you’re doing it with your own sense of [INAUDIBLE 00:32:27] really.

So, if you can find a way of representing that, but perhaps draws on things that people are familiar with elsewhere and suggest to them something else. So, again, this is just formulaic, it’s just procedure, it’s just that there is some kind of laws that you can follow, then that’s something you can harness in the pursuit of your own goals. So, I would genuinely spend a lot of time focusing on that. This is something you can draw on that’s out there already that is going to add to your brand and your proposition.

Simon Dell: And I think the thing you just touched on there, that there’s a formula. Formulas have end results. When you calculate a formula, when you go through a process, there is an end result. And looking at those 15 blocks, you sort of go, “If I do those 15 blocks, my business will achieve upwards growth.” Whereas without those, you’re taking a journey from [INAUDIBLE 00:33:27] to St. Ives but you’re doing it without a map. And essentially, what you’re giving people is a 15-block map.

Mal McCallion: Exactly that. And also, in so many other ways, it can help. You can diagnose the three things that you are most challenged by in this. So, you may be doing social media, marketing distribution really, really well but actually you don’t know who you’re talking to, so your marketing intent is wrong.

So, you disagree with some stuff [INAUDIBLE 00:33:54] but it’s not going to the right people. So, all of those things interlock as well and you have to do some really cool stuff around that as well. So yeah, and then you’ve got a scorecard and it will score all these. So, it’s that level basically, is actually, can we be [INAUDIBLE 00:34:08]. Many, many businesses don’t make it but actually are there some things that you can deliver to people, give them extra confidence, because [INAUDIBLE 00:34:19] as well. And they’re going to help me get over [INAUDIBLE 00:34:22].

Simon Dell: Mal, thank you very much for your time. I know it’s early in the morning there. I know the rest of the family is still asleep and it’s pretty dark and cold outside. It’s 28 degrees here and sunny, which is why I left that country in the first place, Mal, because I didn’t want to be cold anymore.

Mal McCallion: Yes. I can relate to that.

Simon Dell: Is there enough snow to go and make a snowman outside? That’s my question.

Mal McCallion: Me and the kids were out there yesterday making snowmen. We think there should be some more than yesterday. They’ve been home-schooling and getting [INAUDIBLE 00:34:54].

Simon Dell: That sounds like the worst thing I could ever think about.

Mal McCallion: [INAUDIBLE 00:34:59].

Simon Dell: Sure, you’re going to enjoy it. Mate, thank you very much for being on. I really appreciate it, and good luck. Sorry, last question, I forget to ask everybody now. If people want to get a hold of you, what’s the best way of reaching out to you? Where are you most responsive?

Mal McCallion: If you go to, G-R-O-W-T-I-O-N dot C-O, click on the Services section there, and there’s loads and loads of stuff. You can get tips. You can get a newsletter, all that sort of stuff. It’s all there. Loads of stuff free. And yeah, you can have a look at that, and you can reach out to me through there too.

Simon Dell: Awesome. Mate, thank you very much. Have a good rest of your day.

Mal McCallion: It’s a pleasure. Enjoy yours. Take care, thanks.

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